ORF interview — Vienna 1994

Transcript of Tape B 24/94 Vienna (1994-06-24)

Question: Which are the essential points of your teaching?

Dr. Harbhajan Singh: You know there are fundamental truths in every religion. And the experiences of our competent Masters must become our experiences. Because all that is written in the holy scriptures is the outcome of our competent Masters, and that is written in the holy scriptures, and their experiences must become our experiences.

Question: And which is this holy experience the books are teaching?

Dr. Harbhajan Singh: This body is the true temple of God, and we have to rise in it. Through the outgoing faculties of our mind we are identified into the body. We are more identified outside, but we have to transcend above the body-consciousness. We have to realize what we are, who we are, from where we came, how we came, and now what is the purpose of human life. It is a golden opportunity to have the physical body because it is the true temple of God. So our purpose is to solve the riddle of life. All Masters had solved the riddle of life, and they stressed the need for us, too. So it is a golden opportunity, it is our turn to meet God. Everything in the world is a side-issue.

Question: So you have said, the essential point is to meet God, and how can we meet God?

Dr. Harbhajan Singh: There are lots of ways, but that way which was adopted by all the competent Masters that was unique, and it is the only one way (to find God). All competent Masters, whether they came in the East or the West, came at different places and different times (in the world), they taught the very same truth with one opinion. And you can have that opinion by reading the holy scriptures. That opinion is our subject. But there are lots of other scriptures, (which are also called holy scriptures) from various masters – doesn’t matter whether they are from so-called or from the competent Masters – but their experiences do not tally with each other. Those differ with their opinions. We have to discriminate (what these and those are talking about).

Man is distinguished by one positive factor: he has discriminating power. In that way he differs from the whole creation. This (discriminating power) is a great blessing from the God Power, with which one can know what is what. So it is our subject to know everything that appears outside and inside. And you know, all the holy scriptures are the outcome from within.

The question is within and the answer is also within. Suppose you put me a question and I gave you the wrong answer, you would never cooperate with me, since you have the right answer within you. So we can discriminate those experiences which are written in the holy scriptures within ourselves. As for example, if there is no holy scripture, even then you can write it again by seeing within. You can analyse all those things from within. Body is the true temple of God. Everything is within, not outside. Macrocosm is in the microcosm.

Question: So you say that, for example, Jesus Christ made the same God-experience, or maybe Mohammed had the same God-experience as you have?

Dr. Harbhajan Singh: It does not differ at all. But we have to discriminate (between the true experience which is laid down in all the Holy Scriptures, and the negative experiences of the so-called ‘masters’ which always differ from each other). The teaching which is within us is alike. So the teaching of Jesus Christ, Guru Nanak, and Sant Kirpal Singh is one and the same. It does not differ at all. Jesus Christ has told, rather all Masters have told, where the world-philosophies end, there the (true) religion starts. So the world-philosophies do not end with the astral and the causal plane (both also made of matter), only beyond them.

This heaven that is taught by Christ, that is beyond the cause and effect of the world. So this is a discrimination. And lots of (so-called) ‘masters’ are teaching the sub-standard, means these teachings are from the astral or maximally causal plane. But they also teach lots of yogic practices – this is not more than gymnastics. It is not the reality.

Question: There are a lot of teachers from the East coming to the West and are teaching meditation, teaching yoga, and they say, this is the right way, you have to do like this.

Dr. Harbhajan Singh: Go back to your Holy Scriptures, what is there? Should we follow this Teaching (of the Holy Scriptures) or that teaching which they (these ‘teachers’) are telling?

We have to discriminate! It is our fault! It is not the fault of these people, since they are living for self-existence (they are earning their livelihood by teaching).

So this is a very solid and potent answer to these things: that the philosophy, the true heaven that is taught by all competent Masters, that is not within the cause and effect of the world, even not within the causal plane. You have to rise above the cause and effect of the three worlds. Then only you can step into this heaven that is taught by Christ. And there is the Water of Life and Bread of Life. So all those experiences in the astral and the causal plane are not more than magic. Not more than that!

All souls living there are living with riddhis and siddhis (supernatural powers), with no discriminating power. There is no person with right understanding in any religion. If there is, he will rise above the shackles of the religion. So is the condition with the astral and the causal plane. All powers (there), whether they are angels, whether they are gods, goddesses, avataras, they lose their discriminating power there. If there is anyone with discriminating power, he will rise above the cause and effect of the world, he will not stay in the astral and the causal plane at all.

Question: How can I know who is the competent Master?

Dr. Harbhajan Singh: The first thing is that there is only one Doer, that is the Christ Power, Master Power, God Power. Jesus and Christ, they were two: Jesus was the son of man on whose pole the Christ Power worked. Christ lived before Jesus. Christ has no beginning and no end. So Christ Power has created the whole Creation and sustains each one of us and we have a direct and independent contact with that God Power. Those who come as Masters, they themselves say, they are the borrowed servants of God. There is only one Doer. Because when you see, our Father is doing all, how can you claim that you are the doer?

Because reading, writing, feeling, emotion, and drawing inferences can all be subject to error. Seeing is above all. When you see your Father doing, your doership (ego) will finish. He is the only Doer.

Question: I believe, you are teaching how to get in contact with God? So which way do you teach?

Dr. Harbhajan Singh: Man is older than all the philosophies of the world, so our subject is to follow that old, old teaching that is within. And this teaching, that experience is given by God Himself that is within, when you become receptive and when you have the yearning for God. This God Power is within, He will help you to be there, where His work is going on. So in this way a contact is made. Light comes from light and life comes from life. (Only one who is in contact with God can help others to get a contact with Him.)

The first criterion is that the one who is commissioned by God would never say that he is the Master. He is already connected with the God Power and he will help you to be connected with Him as well. That is his purpose. So he will raise you above the body-consciousness and he will give you that experience which happens at the time of death. So that experience will transcend you above the cause and effect of the world. Then you are reborn. When you enter into the heaven that is taught by Christ, when you enter there, there is Bread of Life and Water of Life. Once you take it, you will never be thirsty or hungry to come back into the world.

That is the right teaching. If one time you had this experience, you are blessed there, you won’t come back. Simply you have to overcome the reaction of the past (in this life). So that is the teaching of all Masters. God Power appeared in many forms:

Sometime He came as Jesus Christ, sometime He came as Guru Nanak, sometime He came as Kabir, sometime He came as Guru Gobind Singh, and one time He came as Sant Kirpal Singh. So their experiences are all one. Our Father is One.

We all have come from one and the same Source and we have to go back to the same Source. The subject does not differ at all. Where the subject differs, there the teaching is not right. Take it for granted that the experience of our competent Masters should be the same, should not differ at all.

Question: But the problem is that after Sant Kirpal Singh had died, different other masters came and said, “I am the real teacher after Kirpal Singh.” What can you say about them?

Dr. Harbhajan Singh: In the terminology of the Saints it is said, those who claim themselves as Master, they can never be the Master. This is one thing. But if there is any Master, he would never say he is the Master, but he can give that experience. But who gives it? His Master!

(Most of those who think themselves to be the successor, claim to be the Master, and so become the doer [means, ego is there]. But if someone becomes the doer himself, God Power can never work through him. One who is really commissioned by God sees that only His Master, only the God Power is the one who does all.)

Question: Then you say they can give the same experience as you give?

Dr. Harbhajan Singh: My Master gives it, He is the Giver! So any experience that is given to you, that is your heritage which is within you, nobody is giving you anything from outside. So a Master does not change you, he does not teach you any other lesson than the lesson of your own that is within you. So this Teaching is within. Only He diverts your attention and makes you a complete person in your own self. He withdraws your attention (from the outside world) and helps you to rise above the body-consciousness and to see yourself. Once you see yourself, you say it is right.

Master told me, “You are a borrowed servant of God, you have to work, and only those will come to you who are sent by Him, others will not come. So your work will become very easy for you as well as for others (who work with you).

Such people have the background. I tell you, they have that experience, they are happy. So I tell all people, “Since you have known the purpose of human life, you should live and do with it.” And since our contact with the God Power is direct and independent, our purpose is to remove our problems ourselves, whatever we have created for ourselves and for others. And we should be a complete person in ourselves. We have to be true to ourselves – not only true to ourselves, we have to be true to others as well, so that you become an example in the world.

Even one person in a city, let’s say in Vienna, is sufficient to bring a big vibration everywhere. So the purpose of a Master is just like a perfumery shop, from where you can get this smell free of any cost. Masters who really are the Masters, would never claim themselves as Masters.

And the other criterion is, they do not live on their teaching and preaching (they earn their livelihood by honest means). They will help you to rise above the body-consciousness – that is the first-hand experience. What they teach has nothing to do with the tentacles of the mind and matter and the outgoing faculties of the mind.

Question: So what have I to do if I would like to have this experience, when I would like to rise above my body-consciousness? What can I do, I mean in my practical life?

Dr. Harbhajan Singh: The first thing is that we must know the competency of our Master, as what He wants, as what He desires from us. And we have to become one with Him. So first thing is we should be fully conversant with the Teaching, what is for us within. When we are knowing the theoretical aspect of life fully, then it can take you to the practical aspect of life.

So the practical aspect of life tells us how to transcend above the body-consciousness. But not that which is taught outside, going through the chakras, meditating over here at the seat of the soul. Nowadays all people say, “Here is the seat of the soul.

But where is the seat of the soul really? All people who try to meditate (at the seat of the soul) first come to the seat of the intellect. Then (there) is the mind, one can see the light from the mind. Mind in the body is always the astral mind. So when we stress upon the mind, it will take you to the chakras.

There are many beauties, many sceneries in the chakras, so all their life people are deluded into the chakras and they waste their life. It is not the reality. And if anybody transcends above the chakras, even if he enters into the astral plane, astral plane is also governed by the negative power. So those souls who go there into the astral plane, they lose their life for all the times and they are fully controlled by the negative power and there is no way to come out of it.

You may have read life-histories of many, many rishis and munis. They became the skeleton of the bone, but they could not get rid of the astral plane.

So what is there in this astral plane?

There are the hell and heavens, created by the negative power, which could be created because we created wishes, and this negative power fulfilled these wishes, and now we have strengthened his hand and he has created the hell for the sinner and heaven for the pious egoist. Both are under his clutch.

So this is not the right way. This is a big delusion. This is creating a big problem throughout the world and people are suffering from psychic problems. That is all from the astral plane.

Astral light affects the mind. Through these astral lights people are getting emotional, more and more emotional. The more masters are coming who work in this direction, the more problems are existing in the world. Otherwise mankind is one, Teaching is one, our Subject is one, and we are all reading in one and the same class, our Purpose (of human life) is one, though we are wearing the different badges of the different colleges, but the Subject is always one. So our concern should be with this subject. If we start teaching the right subject in our own religion, in our own circle, there can never be any problem.

Question: Unity of Man says that all religions are the same and they all try to tell the people the same truth. But in reality it is so that, for example, the Christian religion says, “We are only the right religion and we have to missionate the other people that they become Christians.” I believe that the Islam is telling this in the same way. They are telling, “We are the only right religion.” So what do you tell these people?

Dr. Harbhajan Singh: God made man, and man made religion. Never in history any competent Master ever created a religion. Religion was created by the so-called followers of the faith. Thereafter they created outer rituals and rites. When nothing could come out of the outer rituals and rites, they created the shackles.

Now all these problems (which are there with religions) are due to the shackles. One is the paid preaching. We are affected by the paid preaching. If you rise above the shackles, the religion is very true, the teaching is true. It will not discriminate in that way. We will all get together.

All religions, all countries are the different chambers of the house of the Lord. It is only the geographical effect which has divided man from one place and another place. The seed of humanity was sown at one place and this is what we people have distributed according to our own wishes. Otherwise we are all one. When the Teaching is one, how can we say, “I am greater and they are smaller, or my teaching is higher than that of others?” No, the problem is only mind-made. We are all one, and the one who is a conscious co-worker of the divine plan, he will love all human beings, he will respect all religions, because he sees his Master in everyone, so he loves everyone. This is a distinguished quality in that person. He will not dominate any religion, he will respect all religions, he will respect all human beings in the world, though he may be born in any country, or in any religion, but he has already risen above the shackles. So that is one beauty in him.

With His grace, my Master withdrew me above the body-consciousness, and whatever I speak, I speak from my practical life, and it is not ego, it is His grace. From my childhood, when I was hardly five years old, I used to withdraw from the body-consciousness, transcending through the stars, moon and sun, I used to have a serene thrilling in my life. That could change my life. When I grew older, I had a yearning to meet the God Power. I took Guru Nanak as my Master (as He described that very experience in Guru Granth Sahib). But when my yearning turned into a great craving and a ruling passion in my life, Sant Kirpal Singh appeared to me. I told Him that I wanted to see Guru Nanak. He said, “Then think of me!” And when I thought of Him, Guru Nanak appeared. I saw they are all one.

So in the terminology of the Saints and by your own experience, you will see that they are all one. Like so many bulbs in the room, our attention is in the light but not on the glass. Masters all have come from the one source and went back to the same source. They are all working with us, they have not gone anywhere.

Christ said,

I shall never leave thee nor forsake thee till the end of the world.

So the question, if those Powers will come back, does not arise. They are innate in us. We simply have to rise above the cause and effect of the world (to meet them). As long as we are within the three worlds (physical, astral or causal), we cannot have them.

So all those experiences which people have from the so-called ‘masters’ are only on the level of the senses. That only feeds the senses and the mind and nothing beyond that. (We can know God only through our consciousness or soul, spirit – which is of the same essence as that of God, not through senses, feelings, emotions or thoughts.) It is nothing but black magic, mesmerism, spiritism, spiritualism, it is not beyond that. And those who do it are not supposed to come into the man-body again, they will go to the transmigration (reincarnation below the human form). All those souls who settle in the three worlds are always under the transmigration. We lose our life only for want of right understanding.

So ignorance has led man astray from his real path. People are ignorant, they do not know. And who are the sinners responsible for that? Those who teach it. Kabir has told, “All those so-called ‘masters’ who are teaching these practices, are the evil-doers.” Evil has come out of these practices.

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