September 15, 1970 — Dehra Dun
(Light of Kirpal, chapter 9)
Master: When a man is involved in meditation he says, “Oh, God prolong the hours so that they may never finish, never end.” Any time spent in separation should be shortened.
Disciple: May the time be hastened when I can make that statement.
Master: Yes, prolonged. Pray that the days and nights be prolonged.
Disciple: My wife was wondering, based on a remark of Yours the other night, if we can work off some of our karma in dreams. Would you explain it a bit more?
Master: Sometimes it happens that man has to go into another life but in special cases Master can pass that life in dreams, you see. You will feel, you will see everything. But it happens rarely.
Disciple: And you can work off that other life in dreams?
Master: The Master makes it work off, not you. Not all.
Disciple: So, in other words, the dreams that you’re dreaming are working off that extra life that otherwise you would have to come back here to…
Master: No, no. no. Generally all dreams are only reactions of our many thoughts which occur to us during the day and are not completed. There are dreams and there are visions. There’s a vast difference between the two. Sometimes in dreams you’re not clear at the time; in the morning when you rise you think that you have seen something. But in visions, you see; you are wide awake; you see things. You remember at the time, and quite vividly even in the morning. They are called visions. So there is a vast difference between the two. Dreams are quite hazy. You are not quite conscious at the time.
Disciple: Explain dreams a bit more, won’t you? Quite a few people say that they have been having unusual dreams since they came here. Someone was saying that tonight.
Master: What sort? Most of them will be reactions of the past that come to view. Some dreams, as I explained are not dreams; they’re visions. You can meet the Master; you can see many future things which are going to happen. These are visions. Sometimes it happens that we dream of something and years after, you happen to be there. They are visions. Any unusual thoughts, dreams? Let me hear them.
Disciple: Nobody wants to admit that they had some unusual dreams.
Master: Yes, let us hear one, two, for instance.
Disciple: I don’t try to remember them. I have been having a lot of dreams.
Master: A dream is always hazy, not clear, disconnected. In the morning you may have a hazy idea about it; so these dreams are not unusual — any dream which is unfinished, uncompleted, happenstance, some head here and tail there, disconnected. Some dreams even from the past do come. They’re not reliable, I tell you. Visions are reliable.
Disciple: When you go to sleep and you may be half asleep and then you start to leave the body, your soul starts to move up, is that going into a vision or…?
Master: If you are in a dream you go to sleep; are you conscious?
Disciple: No, not if you are asleep. You are going asleep and all of a sudden you become conscious that your soul is rising.
Master: Yes, the soul withdraws. That’s all right.
Disciple: So what does that mean?
Master: You’ve relaxed. You’ve withdrawn. In sleep we are in the habit of leaving the body. We withdraw from the body outside, then go down. You have dreams in the gullet. If you go into the navel, then you’re in sound sleep. In visions you’re wide awake; the body sleeps. The more you relax, the more you’ll feel withdrawn.
Disciple: But it feels as if the soul is going up.
Master: Let it go; leave the body. Don’t be attached to it. That is withdrawal. That’s good. Relax fully [as in meditation]. That is why I say, “sit there for a while and then rise. Just go. Go up.” The question is of full relaxation. You may be sitting, may be lying. When lying the only fear is of going to sleep. But the same process is there. In sleep also we withdraw.
Once somebody asked Prophet Mohammed, “Do you sleep?” He said, “My body sleeps. I do not sleep.” The soul does not sleep; it withdraws.
Disciple: I was very sorry the other evening when you asked us to step into your bedroom; the tape had run out and at that time you had several comments on consciousness that I wished very much that we had recorded. Could you repeat them?
Master: What was the subject? What was the question? I give out as it comes.
Disciple: I asked you if You Yourself did any sleeping and then You came up with this answer that I wasn’t able to record.
Master: When you withdraw the first process is the same in both sleep and meditation. The soul withdraws from outside, withdraws from the body below and comes to the back of the eyes. Eyes are like those in a man who dies, you see. That is the usual process. Now in dreams the soul descends into the gullet and sees dreams; in sound sleep, it descends to the navel. But [in visions] there you’ll be able to remain conscious and the body will sleep. So the need for sleep is lessened, the more you are accustomed to it. You can usually sleep six hours, seven hours, five hours, four hours, three hours. We’ve seen many cases who only sleep one hour, two hours. That is sort of what you experience when you completely leave the physical body. In meditation the body takes rest, but you are wide awake.
Disciple: I remember when I asked you whether you slept any yourself and you asked me, “Are you worried?” and the answer was, “Yes.” Perhaps I should not be worried about this but I have a little worry about it. Do you ever sleep at all? Ever?
Master: Yes, why not?
Disciple: The rumor is that you don’t get much.
Master: Less than an hour or two. That is relaxation, sometimes when I’m tired. As you go on your need for sleep is lessened, as I told you.
Disciple: But in that hour you’re able to recuperate? For the next 23 hours?
Master: Yes, there is recharging. Daily you recoup. On spiritual health depends the life of mind and body both. Soul withdraws and again you come back in. That is recharging. When you’re very tired, then recharging comes. The curative power is in the soul. Medicines merely help to clear the way, that’s all. I remember in 1914 I was sitting in the office of a doctor. He wrote a long prescription, I think with eight or ten medicines and asked his compounder to dispense. I was watching; he hardly put one thing in it, and then added water, distilled water. I asked him, “What are you doing?” He said, “This is to satisfy the people. The real work is from nature working, soul working. The curative power is there. I give only a little something, tincture of ginger, acid, soda bicarbonate and so on, that’s all. And it takes effect.”
Disciple: Is there anyone at all in the West today of Thoreau’s caliber?
Master: Maybe, how will it help. you? Even in you, you have got some light. Is there any doubt about it? Yes, when I initiate I tell them, “Look here, you have got something with the grace of God.” By parallel study of religion I found that this was the high road and by meeting different Masters and sitting at the feet of my own Master I found that which has been conveyed to you, with the Grace of God. I could find nothing better so far. If perchance you get something better, I request you to take me with you. After all, we are after Truth. This saved some people from wrong propaganda. They made mountains of molehills and various gurus have not proved true. They tried to bring their own men to the highest possible by propaganda. That is not right, you see.
Disciple: I think N.N. would willingly admit in India the spiritual leadership comes from today but she’s being a little provincial and is wondering if North America may not have someone who comes close to Thoreau at least so that we can have somebody seventy to eighty percent over there as Thoreau was; I believe you said the other day
[ In the talk of 7 September 1970, which was not recorded, Master said that Thoreau came closest to being an illuminate in the U.S. — perhaps seventy to eighty percent ]…
Master: Maybe less or more. The world is not without Them after all. A few must be there. That cannot be denied. Mainly the center of spirituality has been India. Central Asia, India, has been the main place. History shows that. But you have got sufficient advancement in the material way. What more do you want?
Disciple: I wasn’t thinking about Satsangis at all, Master. We have You. We don’t need any other Master.
Master: I’m not Master, I tell you. God in me is the Master. I never dream that I’m the Master. I see some Power helping others; all thanks go to Him, not me.
Disciple: You don’t mind us calling you Master, though, do you?
Master: This is a misnomer. God is the Master. There is some word for it, maybe Master or Teacher or elder brother or father. If you call me father, your brother, or your friend, what difference does it make?
Disciple: I notice the other day someone referred to you as Maharaj.
Master: ‘Maharaj’ means “highest person.” That’s all. Words. These are words. Really the Maharaj (God) is That which is within me. That is within you, too.
Disciple: I think somebody had another question back there.
Master: Yes, come up. It may be the worst of questions. Don’t be afraid. No reservations, and I hope that I will reply to the best I know. Don’t feel reserved, you see. Tell me, like the daughter comes to the father, as the son comes to the father, as the brother comes to the brother. Where’s the question of reservation? Not in me. Don’t be ashamed. While you have the chance, ask it.
Disciple: I was wondering, Master, why you give names, separate names, five different names to the Moslems.
Master: Yes, what is the reason? There were saints in the Moslems’ religion too. They had the same words translated into Arabic, meaning the same thing. But it is only the charging that helps, not the words, mind that. All Scriptures say you must remember God through a Saint.
What is the reason? Charging is the action behind it. I’ll give you an example which I tell at the time of Initiation. One man was bitten by a scorpion; there is pain. The man who has got that incantation, breathes several words and that pain is lessened. The same words may be repeated by another who has a PhD and so many other degrees, but those words don’t work.
The man who has that competence can even ask a little child to repeat the names. His words will help — that is the charging, thought transference, of the words. These names are given in the books. Anybody can give them. Our Master (Baba Sawan Singh) used to say, “Even the spinning girl can give you these five names. But they don’t carry the charging, you see. Only the charging will give you experience.”
Disciple: What is the nature of the charge that you put into the words?
Master: Thought transference. Thought transference. It works through the thought transference. The words are charged because the thought transference is there. Now I tell you, these names are given by so many; but the people don’t get any experience. When anybody [initiated by another] comes to me and asks, I simply say, “Repeat these names: all right, now sit down.” And by thought transference he gets experience. You follow me?
And further, one thing more. If you leave fruit-bearing trees to nature, they will take six to seven years to bear fruit. If they are handled by scientific ways those very fruit trees will give you fruit in two or three years. So these words coming from a competent Man, will increase your progress within. What you would do in a hundred years you can do in, say, three years. That’s the difference. The words work against the Negative Power behind. Moreover, if the Negative Power appears or there are any delusions created within, and you repeat the Names [the words which carry the thought transference] they’ll be off. The charging will help.
Disciple: What you are saying in part is that if you chose, you could pick just any five names at all and give them to us.
Master: Any, yes. That’s why I give them in Arabic.
Disciple: Do you give any other combinations of names — Persian?
Master: Persian is Arabic. Any man may say, “All right, say ‘Ram’, say, ‘God.’” That Ram, God, conveys only one aspect of the case. One aspect. Ram is permeating through all creation. And the word ‘Ram’ means that. That is one side. These five words correspond to different planes and explain the whole creation.
Disciple: But I mean You could at initiation give, “Apples, pears, prunes…” If You gave it, that’s the thing that counts.
Master: I never give anything, and the people have the experience. That’s thought transference. Children on initiation day, ten-twenty-thirty children sit down, they see Light. They are not given the names. That is thought transference. You repeat the names.
Those who are given names which are not charged with transference say they’ll bear fruit in years. These [charged words] will bear fruit then and there; in months. It makes a vast difference. I’ve seen such-like instances. When they’re initiated, they’re given the same names and told, “All right, you go on with it. It will take time.” Then he sometimes starts by putting one hour, two hours daily, [with no results], so they are told to put in more time. Such like people have come to me. They said, that they were told, “All right, simply put in more time.” They began to give four to five hours a day. With all that they did not get experience. Fortunately or unfortunately they came up to me. “All right, sit down. God gives it.” So thought transference is the main thing. Words are only a means to it, in a very scientific way.
Disciple: What is the purpose of creating the planet earth in the divine plan?
Master: Who created it? You should go to Him and ask Him. What is the purpose for which I’m making Manav Kendra? After all, some purpose is there. I wish it. I’m inspired. I wish all men should sit together without any labels. They may be of any religion, but they are men first. The purpose is there, of course. God wanted to create earth, after all nobody can question Him like that. When you reach Him you’ll have no intellect, no questions.
Disciple: Is that answer available at the top of the mental plane, too?
Disciple: So the answer is really, go meditate some more.
Master: You are in a house now on fire. You must try now to go out to save yourself. Instead of your asking, “Who put it on fire? with what purpose? why has it been done?” When you come up, you may inquire. Wouldn’t that be better?
I put you one question: did the hen precede the egg or did the egg precede the hen? Tell me? These are all questions in the grand delusion. Unless you transcend the astral plane you cannot know. If a man reading in primary is put a question in trigonometry, will he understand? When he reaches college, he then begins to understand.
Disciple: Where do we stand in the educational scheme, spiritually? You spoke of college and grade school, are we even as far as kindergarten? Most of us? When does kindergarten begin, when you break through? Is that kindergarten?
Master: There’s no kindergarten here. You start when the kindergarten is finished. You rise above physical body kindergarten. You are in the physical body of the outgoing faculties. When you rise above them, only there religion starts.
Disciple: So you just start school when you get in here [points to forehead]. You’re looking in.
Master: Where the philosophies end, there religion starts. Re: means back; Ligio: means to bind. The ABC starts from there. All other things concerning your outgoing faculties, mind or intellect, are lost. They’re all meant for the purpose to understand That. Good actions beget good reactions but the doership is not gone. Doership goes when you rise above physical. Daily you rise and naturally you feel your outward attachments lessen. You’ll never be afraid of death. You’ll be jolly, glad.
Disciple: Jolly glad to throw this body away.
Master: Yes, yes. I told you those who were initiated go jolly, smiling. This is the way my wife passed away. She said to me, “I am going on the second (2nd April), Master told me I am going.” I told her, “This is a very busy day; thousands of people will be here. Tell the Master not to take you.” So on the morning of the third, I asked her, “Are you quite ready?” She said, “Yes.” — “All right, go.” She smiled and left. This is a good death. This fate awaits everyone who puts in time regularly. We daily die. Guru Nanak said,
“Die a hundred times a day.”
Hundred times a day. This is daily dying, you see. Take cross daily. What does that mean? Cross? Can’t you remember what the Cross is?
Disciple: Oh, yes, take up your cross daily…
Master: Yes, this is Cross. [ Master shows cross as the human body with outstretched arms. ] We have symbols, yet have forgotten what they stand for. They simply took the burden of the cross here on the shoulder and passed through the streets of Jerusalem. That is symbolic, but within is Light. Merely taking the cross on the body is a symbol. The real taking of the cross is to rise above body consciousness. This is going up. You mentioned Guru Nanak a moment ago. There have been some people who have described seeing you with Guru Nanak. But I was wondering how those people are able to identify Guru Nanak. They never saw him in the flesh themselves. That recognition arises from within. And when you compare with the outward photos, etc., they mostly agree.
Disciple: But there were never any photos taken of Guru Nanak, of course.
Master: There are some; few.
Master: Paintings. Hand paintings. They all meet inside. You recognize them from the inner sense, from the sixth sense, not the five senses. But I think it is better to go there and see.
Disciple: I know. That’s your constant message.
Master: Unless you see for yourself these things may be interesting to you for a while, but real interest will arise when you see inside.
I wish everyone of you to become an ambassador. Saints want everybody who comes to them to become a Saint. Every king would like his son to be a king, not a minister. Do you see? Saints want everybody who comes to a Master to become a Saint — the real Saints and not the business-like saints. That’s another thing. What did Christ say:
Beware of the false prophets
who come in sheep’s clothing
but are ravening wolves.
They appear to be very polite. The only criterion can he one who can give you a lift, open the inner eyes so that you see there is light there: not tell you that you’ll get it in due course. What other criterion can there be, tell me? Their propaganda? No! There is no dearth of propaganda anywhere. Money can buy anything. Propaganda can be paid for. But what is the criterion? Can he open the inner eye, remove the darkness from within for you to see? There you say, “God is Light.”
Disciple: You speak of the false prophets as lambs who are ravening wolves.
Master: I don’t speak about the false prophets, Christ did.
Disciple: Well, others have.
Master: Christ, I am quoting his words.
Disciple: But you also, of course, have spoken of so-called masters which is another way of putting it.
Master: A very polite way.
Disciple: Yes, but haven’t the so-called masters at times been helpful. Now you spoke of one the other night and we didn’t mention his name but he was of help to me and my wife if only briefly.
Master: You see, you can learn from some; you can learn in the primary class. If a teacher is there, be thankful to him. I say, be thankful for whatever you learn from anyone. When you go to the middle class, if that very same teacher can give you the college teachings, well and good. If not, have respect for him for what you have learned at his feet, but then you will have to go to someone for further way up. This is something. We sometimes say we have got no guru after we learn something from him. Well, everybody has some teacher in the outward way. Even those who are advanced, they also want to sit together and enjoy.
Disciple: That’s a terrible sin to admit you have no guru when you really do.
Master: It is deceiving your own self, and deceiving God. Of course, we are thankful for anything we learn at the feet of anybody. They have been the stepping stones.
I’ve learned so many things, I tell you. Lukmanu the Great was a very wise man. People asked him how he became wise. He said, “From the fools.” You see? What he meant to say was that anybody could get the same thing in different ways. The same pain may be expressed in so many ways. I had an experience once when I went to America. I was called to be on television. When my name went round like wildfire in the United States, some of the heads of the religions sat together and said they would defeat me. They called me on this television show without informing me that anybody else would be on. There was a round table.
Four or five people entered and I greeted them, “All right, how do you do. I’m glad to meet you. Thank you so much. Sit down.” One was a Jew, another was a Roman Catholic, one was a Protestant, one was something else, and one was the head of a newspaper. “I hope you won’t mind,” one of them said, “if we have something to ask?” — “No, you’re most welcome to ask any questions.” The television program started and then all of them, one-two-three, all of them put questions. I replied.
“Anything more?” Then again they asked further questions to which I replied. Third time around only two or three remained. They put more questions and I replied. It was a round table, you see; underneath they were passing messages. “Put him some more questions,” giving signals with their legs, with their feet. Then the last question of all, “How do we know that we have known God?” — “How do we know that we have known God?” I told them, “When you have got pain in your stomach, how do you know?” They shook heads and said, “You are right.”
How do we know that we have known God? Basic teachings are the same. Truth is one. That school is all right, that religion is all right that turns out a perfect man. Definition of a perfect man I showed you the other day in the Manav Kendra pamphlet.(1)
Disciple: What do you foresee ten years from now for Manav Kendra? What’s it going to be like out there in ten years?
Master: That’s a place of refuge.
Disciple: Refuge from what?
Master: From the troubles of the world.
Disciple: Like bombs, maybe.
Master: Maybe in twenty years.
Disciple: Twenty years for refuge from the bombs.
Master: It appears like that. You’ll have a common ground to sit together as a man. That’s the only refuge left now, I think.
Disciple: That’s why you spoke of its ability to accommodate a million persons?
Master: No, that is only because it is a vast place. If all men sit together, even now, when they go there ten thousand gather together. It is like that in the Ashram, too. Twenty-five to thirty thousand people gather together. In the United States they also had thousands in one day.
Disciple: Is this one of the blessed locations that will not be affected by, shall we say, atomic radiation?
No place is safe from this atomic radiation. Seasons have changed from radiation, you see. But this is an aloof place, north of India. So I wish that Manav Kendra should be located not only in the north but also in the east, west and south — all corners — one in the center(3), too. Ultimately that will happen.
Disciple: You imply that India is probably going to be spared the holocaust that might hit other parts of the world. Otherwise, these five centers, of course, would not continue to exist.
Master: India may be the worst.
Disciple: It may be hit the worst?
Master: It may be a place where there is a field of action. Times have changed for the worse, you see. So far China came on India like anything and turned back in only a day (1962).
India is the home of our Saints — of Spirituality. Spirituality has been radiating from India and Central Asia generally. And the Punjab has been separated from this part. All places [such as this] have lost sanctity, I tell you. Just the same they still have their atmospheric affect, less poisoned by the people at large from the towns.
When I came here in 1954 it was all isolated, nobody was seen, there were hardly one or two out walking. All doors were open, no theft, nothing of the sort. There is a vast difference between then and now. It is better here compared to large towns. But you still find so many government offices here; and now, theft has just begun here too. We never dreamt of it before.
Disciple: Has theft penetrated your household even?
Master: Not here, not here. God is here, but it is coming in this area, I mean. The poison of the towns has been wafting in now.
Disciple: As far as we’re concerned here we can throw away our locks.
Master: My point is this place was all calm and quiet at one time. Even now when you go back it’s more calm and quiet. Have you been to the back(2) ?
Master: It’s very calm and quiet, all wilderness.
Disciple: It certainly is.
Master: When I am here usually in the morning, you’ll find me there. I come sometimes for a day or two, then go.
Disciple: Back by that little river back there?
Master: No, by the water tank. It’s very calm. Very atmospheric. You hear the Sound Principle when you sit calmly in secluded places, where the poisons of the town have not reached. But the best place is within. Outer solitude helps to some extent, but a very air conditioned place is within you.
All right, good night.
(1) Definition of a perfect man from Manav Kendra pamphlet:
“Let man’s physical body be in full blossom and his soul be full of glory,
intoxicated with the Ringing Radiance of God, radiating love all around
to the whole creation and wish peace unto all the world over, under His will.”
(2) Back of Master’s house in Rajpur.
(3) the Manav Kendra in the center (as explained by Dr Harbhajan Singh) has been built in Kirpal Sagar exactly according to the wish of Sant Kirpal Singh.