September 23, 1970, Evening darshan in Rajpur
(Light of Kirpal, chapter 17)
Disciple: We have our problems in America.
Master: Problems are everywhere. Prejudices are everywhere. Not only in America but everywhere. Problems are sometimes man-made, sometimes unavoidable. What are the problems over there? Convey some of them to me.
Disciple: In America we have racial problems that seem to be coming to a boil now. And also there seems to be a greater problem as far as confrontation between the generations is concerned.
Master: It’s everywhere, but in an advanced country like America, it should be less there.
Disciple: And we also have a current problem of inflation.
Master: Man will have to learn at a very high cost, in due course. They will come round, but at a very high cost, I tell you. These things lead where? To destruction. Don’t you think so? In due course, when these things go on from day to day, more and more, they result in destruction. Too many conflicts will arise. It is growing more and more.
Right understanding is the only remedy. Unless you come to that, there is no peace. Man is being divided, more and more. He is a man first; then the religious label he is carrying, then his racial label, then from which country he comes — so much splitting up. These atom bombs are waiting. God forbid. This is high time for right understanding. The New Age question is coming up among the young. There is awakening, but they require right guidance. Papers, television, radio, they can do much to ameliorate the false position — but they are also going the same narrow way.
If general right understanding as an ideal is put before people — they try to publish these things in a very sweet way — I think that might have a good effect, a better effect, to put down these conflicts. There are political restrictions between countries; there are language restrictions, and racial restrictions, as you say. Truly speaking, all this trouble has passed beyond our care. We can only pray, “Oh God, the world is aflame, it is past our care, we cannot do anything about it. You condescend to send down some Grace to set it right.” Let God save us in any way He likes. We want betterment just now. From day to day these things are growing worse and worse, tighter everywhere.
Disciple: Is there an explosion coming up soon?
Master: If the trend goes on like this, there will be an inevitable result. If God sends some Grace in any way He likes to set this right… otherwise it is past our care, the care of human beings. Every day tensions are growing more and more. The good we are trying to do is like pouring water into sand — it is just like that. Unless Grace comes down from Heaven, from God — that’s the only remedy. They say the Golden Age will arise from the Iron Age. There is an awakening. With His Grace it may become more. It might meet it to some extent. Every country is wanting peace, peace, and yet they prepare themselves for war. Military expenditures — every country is trying to have an atom bomb; many have it already.
Disciple: Is India trying to have an atom bomb?
Master: They say they are not after it, but if there is an increase in nuclear arms, they will have it to at least save their lives. This is what they said publicly, “We are not after it; we are not after the atom bomb.” Well, I pray God send His Grace. It is past our care already, honestly speaking.
Disciple: It’s taking more Grace from God these days than it has in the past then?
Master: Surely. And still more Grace is required to put down all these troubles which are growing more and more.
Disciple: Is that additional Grace going to be forthcoming?
Master: What goes out of the heart of the afflicted people, naturally that is sent by God. After all, we are all His children. But suchlike affairs are doomed, I would say, irremediable. They’ve gone to such an extent; they say, “Peace, peace, peace.” They are trying, but with all that, they are preparing themselves for war — as it appears on the face of it. In some places the difficulties are communism; they are provincial or national or racial. And these problems are everywhere.
Disciple: Since we’ve been here for the past three weeks, I haven’t followed the newspapers at all, and I don’t know how the Peace Talks are coming along. [The Vietnam Peace Talks then being held in Paris.]
Master: Actually what we say we should do, we should live, then it’s all right. They talk of peace but are spending more and more on genocide day to day. Don’t you think so?
Disciple: Lots spent on armaments, yes.
Master: If they talk of peace, let them also have less armaments. More than half of the income of a country is spent on that, even more than half. And if this was spent for the good of the people, then? We are all brothers. Each country should advance as much as possible and be a source of help to others. You strengthen yourself and let others also have strength.
Disciple: In addition to individual karma, I suppose there is national karma as well?
Master: Haven’t you read it in “The Wheel of Life?” I mentioned it there.
Disciple: Is the Master Power going to stop this explosion which seems so inevitable?
Master: Many will be saved who turn their faces to Him. That’s all I can say. The only thing is, we say something and then do something else. That’s the trouble. If the governments really want peace, then where’s the trouble? They should avoid encroaching on the rights of others; live and let others live; make their country so advanced and peace — giving that everybody else would like to come there. Now there are restrictions. You cannot go out from one country into another without a visa. You cannot leave a country without a passport. So these are strongholds, is it not so? We go around like prisoners. When I returned from the 1963 tour, the airplane was not in order; we had to stay in Cairo. So we were restrained… “All right, leave all your baggage, all your passports.” If we had to go to the bank, there were two soldiers with bayonets this side, and two that side — to go to the bank! This is our fate. Just think… if your visa has expired, they won’t let you leave the ship. You will be turned back from the port. This is what is happening.
Rusel Jaque [the author of “Gurudev”] came to India. Perhaps you might have heard about him. He has written one or two books. He has stayed in the ashram. His visa expired. First it was extended for three months, then six months. You cannot stay here more than that. He sent it to Pakistan. From there it was extended. He wanted to live in India. Then again he came to India; again his visa expired. Then he had to send it to Burma, the other side. Then again he wanted to extend his stay. He applied for it and by the time the sanction arrived, his time had expired the day before. So he was turned out of India. The sanction did not arrive a day earlier, that’s all… a true mirror of the fate of the country! He could not remain because the sanction did not arrive at Calcutta in time. It was only a day late. I sent him a wire, but he could not stay. This is a very ordinary incident I am quoting. There are more, graver than that.
There are so many governments. Each man should keep his country in a blooming state, let anybody come in freely and enjoy it, and then help others bring up their governments in the same blooming state. That should be the attitude.
Disciple: You’re painting a very dismal state of affairs tonight. Can’t You offer us any hope?
Master: This is hope: there are Saints, of course. Those who turn their faces to Him, who stand at His door… But I’m talking of the general state of affairs. The trend in which it is going will end in disaster, headlong down daily. They speak of peace, they speak with their lips, but they act otherwise. “Mohammedan countries form an alliance.” — “All Christian countries form an alliance.” There’s trouble going on everywhere. In India too we have got the provincial troubles. Wheat has been sold at Bombay, say at one hundred rupees a maund [about eighty-two pounds]; the same wheat is sold here, thirty rupees; the same wheat is sold in other regions also at a different rate. The country is the same, but one province will not let others help. The same wheat in Pakistan is sold at a much cheaper rate. If we think we are all one, then where is the trouble? Right understanding is required; there’s no other remedy; and His Grace. This is what the Masters did in the past. They went out and gave people right understanding and also “wake up.”
Anyway, it has passed out of the hands of the son of man, that much is sure. Now it is 1970. Don’t you think in twenty or thirty years we’ll be in more trouble, if it goes like that? But there is awakening also. There is a good sign.
They are having conferences to bring all religions together. And the religions are forming pillars; and now the further trend is, we should have all world religions united — a world organization. Each religion, whatever they give you, the basic message remains the same. What is wanted is reformers, not of others, but of themselves. Let us reform our countries.
Disciple: If we’re going to reform our countries, it means we’re going to have to get into political action. Is this the time for that? I mean, as opposed to reforming ourselves?
Master: Politics cannot be reformed. Here in India we have more political parties than in other countries where they have only two or three; here we have about nine or ten.
Now I’ve found the remedy for that — for instance, the Delhi area consists of five or six areas; in each of those areas I went out and gave a talk. I told them, whether you are a Hindu, Mohammedan, or Sikh, you are all brothers, you live together.
Be responsible for the honor of others, daughters and mothers. Be responsible for the life and wealth of others. Those who are sick should be helped; those who are in need should be helped — all should be looked after in your area.
If anybody is not good, try to reform him, and similarly, if you do that all over India, let the world governments change or remain the same; what is it to you? If wife and husband go on amicably, what has the Emperor got to do with it?
Disciple: Advocate social rather than political action?
Master: Yes, that you can do. That is in your hands.
Disciple: You suggest that people of integrity should stand for office, should be voted for, and that would imply perhaps satsangis. And yet on the other hand, satsangis, you say, should indulge more in social action than in standing for office.
Master: All are satsangis. Some have been put on the Way, have been given a touch inside, but they are still yet to become full-blooming satsangis. All are satsangis; some have got ingress, others have not, but the Truth is there.
All ministers, everyone, should resign for three months before voting. Then you should vote for the man of integrity. He must have some background of service, selfless service. If he is chosen from any party, he should serve as the son of the country, not as the son of the party. Those who are chosen because of their party, they fight for the party. And who is in trouble? This is what has happened — and is still going on.
And moreover they should have full conviction: Government of the people, by the people, for the good of the people. And once they are chosen, if they have not proved up to the mark, they should be recalled — even the Government.
If they are enjoined to resign three months before the date of voting and these things are followed, then I think the Government will also change. You cannot turn out those who have been chosen now, can you? No. They continue, maybe doing good, maybe bad; they fight for their parties standing against others because they belong to that party.
So I think this appears to be a very common sense remedy. I’m not a political man, I tell you. They select me everywhere; all men are dragging me for so many things. They have faith in me; they know what I say will be common sense.
Don’t you think Governments will change in ten years if we go on like that? If they’re not changed, even then we can still live amicably. Just have that Inner Way. So reformers will come up that way. This is the way to develop the Golden Age out of the Iron Age — with His grace of course. Pray for it.
Disciple: Both political and social reforms then are needed before the Golden Age comes?
Master: That will inevitably result if you do these things; even the Government can change by voting. But they’re not after change, you see.
Disciple: Do you think that today’s youth is fundamentally idealistic enough to bring about the changes that You suggest?
Master: They want right guidance only, now. They’ve got no right guidance. They are after it, that urge is within them, but they are not given right guidance.
If they’re given this, naturally they’ll take a change in hand in five to ten years. I don’t know if anybody’s going to tell them these things.
Disciple: Do You think these things can be told in the regular media of the day — the regular newspapers?
Master: Where’s the harm in it? Man is a free thinker. Government might impose, that’s another thing. But this is the only way. Before voting, all should resign. Then there’ll be fair voting. Now these parties while in power, in the chair, exercise every influence to be voted in again by the people. Only those who are men of integrity, those who have got some background of selfless service, when chosen, should serve. If he’s in America, first serve America, not the party. Now parties are fighting like anything, as I tell you. If two bullocks are fighting, the crops are spoilt.
Disciple: I get in trouble when I use the word satsangi, but should we assume that initiates should not run for office?
Master: If they’re chosen they can behave as I have explained. How does it go against initiation? You wish good for all, is it not so? If such-like people were really initiates, and they’re really on the way, they’re selfless, they’re honest, they’ve got higher, spiritual strength — they’ll work wonders.
Disciple: I think it would be just wonderful; but wouldn’t it take away from spiritual development?
Master: My Lord, how long do you put in for meditation out of twenty-four hours? You put in two or three hours. In the rest of the twenty-four hours, how many do you put into your work? Put in some time the right way. You’re giving yourself in the sacrifice of others. When a brick is well baked, you can use it anywhere — it will make a strong wall.
If a man is changed, he will work wonders in any line he chooses. We’ve not to stay away and live in the forests. This is very common sense. To me it appears like that, maybe not to many. But as a free man I think you’ll agree.
Disciple: Politicians are the worst people.
Master: They are chosen by us. You curse yourself; why did you choose them? I say sometimes to people when the Government is bad, who is the cause of it? You! Why did you vote for the wrong person? So for the future, don’t do it.
If they cannot come round before that period, whatever they’re chosen for, three or five years, after that, don’t put such people back in office. That is your responsibility. Now people are driven in like animals to vote. Is it not so?
In India especially, but I see in every country it’s like that. They’re fighting like anything among themselves. Whereas all this is meant for the good of the country. With all good wishes, they’re splitting up the country. Don’t you think physical, mundane, and political problems could easily be solved in the spiritual way?
Disciple: I think it’s a wonderful concept — I don’t think I’ve ever heard You say before that initiates should get themselves thus involved in actions of the world.
Master: I’ve never said they shouldn’t. We are not to leave the world and go to the forest. We’ve come here to live — we have to learn swimming in water, not on dry land. When everything goes with your will and pleasure, where’s the difficulty in your being very calm and quiet? But if even in the heat of the moment you remain calm and quiet; that is wonderful. For that you’ve got the Bread of Life; It helps you spiritually but also physically, intellectually, socially and politically everywhere.
Disciple: Socially, I don’t know; I mean in certain social groups I’m aware of, I don’t know how endeared being an initiate makes you to members of those social groups.
Master: You have something to give to your spirit, to give you strength spiritually. If you’re weak, have good food, have exercise; it does not affect your work — that makes you stronger, is it not so?
Now we are amputated men. Physically we are developed, intellectually we are developed, spiritually we are nowhere. On spiritual health depends the life of mind and body both.
This is a very important phase of life. Everybody is groaning, crying, against governments, this and that — who is at the back of it? Those who are crying. So you see, spiritual life does not stand in the way of services, genuine service to society, to the country, to the world.
When we talk like this, time flies. Anyway this is a very important subject. You told me you had so many problems; we’ve been talking them over. If you had not mentioned them, naturally, I would not have talked about them. The remedy for all these problems I see very clearly.